lacto + bret + raspberry + saison

[Willys]

For my next brew I want to go farmhouse. 2 row and wheat base with something different pike malted sunflower seeds, spelt, etc. Looking for a subtle tartness to compliment the raspberry flavor, but I don't want a fruit beer so I will dose that pretty lightly.

1 do I do a sour mash, ascidualted malt, or pitch lacto with my yeast? How do I controll the tartness with the various techniques?

2 for those of u that have used raspberries, is it a strong enough flavor to just throw in a secondary or will I need extract in the keg?

3 should I pitch a healthy dose of saison yeast alone or should I pitch cal and saison to make sure the fermentation finishes. I thought about some bret a but I think it would destroy any raspberry flavor.

Thanks.

[Hardcore]

I wouldn't do a sour mash, it is to unpredictable. Using lacto in the ferment would be good but can continue to sour. I think using acidulated malt would be the most consistent, I'm not sure how much to use though.
I would throw raspberries in the secondary and if it isn't enough you could always add extract to the keg. But I would always try real fruit first.

I think the saison yeast should be good enough you just have to make sure the temp doesn't drop during ferment. Start At Your normal ale ferment and ramp up the temp after fermentation starts. Some people ramp the temp up to as high as 90ºF.
Hope that helps.

[Ozwald]

I wouldn't say a sour mash is unpredictable, but it requires practice & experience. Since you're asking, I'm assuming that isn't the case. It could be a good time to start learning, but if this beer is of importance ie special occasion, it's probably not a good time to start learning. Assuming that, I would go with either of your other options. Controlling a lacto ferment isn't difficult, but again, requires practice & experience, just not at the same level as a sour mash. Acidulated malt is a good choice & requires less practice/experience than the other two. The trade off in a nut shell is less complexity.

Real fruit is a good option, but I wouldn't expect much in the line of aromatics - even though you're not going for a fruit beer, the aromatics will change the perception considerably. Aging on fruit with a touch of extract is likely the best way to go, depending on the extract manufacturer (different brands lend different characteristics).

As for yeast, personally I would pitch 001 for 3ish days & then add the saison strain. You could do the saison straight up though. With your target, however, I'd lean towards the former.

[Willys]

As for yeast, personally I would pitch 001 for 3ish days & then add the saison strain. You could do the saison straight up though. With your target, however, I'd lean towards the former.

If I start with 001 and then add saison and start raising the temp a degree a day up to the mid 80s is the cal ale going to freak out and throw off some unfortunate flavor?

[SouthHouseBrew]

If you want subtle acidity, simply to brighten the flavor of the raspberries, dosing with a bit of lactic acid after adding the fruit isn't a crime here. It allows you full control and, with the level of acidity you're looking for, it wont come off as bland, medicinal, or "fake" tartness.

If you really want to make this beer a special project, try this:

Brew a double batch, fermenting half like normal, and acidifying the other half with a lactic acid fermentation before pitching yeast. You can blend in some of the sour half to reach your desired acidity after adding the raspberries. Hell, you might even like the full-on sour half just as well!

[Ozwald]

As for yeast, personally I would pitch 001 for 3ish days & then add the saison strain. You could do the saison straight up though. With your target, however, I'd lean towards the former.

If I start with 001 and then add saison and start raising the temp a degree a day up to the mid 80s is the cal ale going to freak out and throw off some unfortunate flavor?

If you start in the mid-60's, wait 3 days & raise temp according to your plan, the 001 will be completely finished up long before you make it through the 70's. I would imagine it would affect the yeast like a d-rest. Of course this is all theory. Having problems with my CFC & saying fuck it, I recently had 001 above 80 for a little bit. I was expecting a fusel bomb, but it turned out ok. Fruity, but considering you're going to charge it with saison yeast & add fruit, I wouldn't be too concerned about esters. Thinking about it for a few hours this morning at work after seeing your reply, I'm standing more middle ground now. I think both ways have perfectly good merits & if I were doing this brew, I'd go with a split batch side-by-side.

dosing with a bit of lactic acid after adding the fruit isn't a crime here. It allows you full control and, with the level of acidity you're looking for, it wont come off as bland, medicinal, or "fake" tartness.

It's definitely a viable avenue to explore. I believe the sourness would be more one dimensional than by using other methods, but even then that may not be an issue with this particular brew at all. Good to explore options, for sure.

[brewinhard]

Another option to consider is to brew your saison with a good healthy saison starter pitch. Let that ferment out according to your fermentation profile to maximize attenuation. If the beer dries out properly, then rack to secondary on top of fruit (either real fruit or puree) and pitch the dregs of a commercial sour beer that you like the profile of.

If your saison stalls, then rack it to secondary on top of the fruit with a fresh rolling active starter of Cal ale yeast to finish things up. This should help to finish fermenting the fruit and original sugars left behind from the saison strain.

Pitching the saison strain first is important to get the proper aroma and flavor profile that those yeast strains are known for. Also, don't underestimate additional acidity you will gain from the raspberries which can lend a subtle tartness all on their own.

If you plan on adding the acidulated malt, then 1-2# will be noticeable and combined with the fruit addition and saison strain it will probably not come across as overly "fake". Just some thoughts from my scrambled brain after a long day of reviewing science topics with 14 yr olds.

[Willys]

If your saison stalls, then rack it to secondary on top of the fruit with a fresh rolling active starter of Cal ale yeast to finish things up. This should help to finish fermenting the fruit and original sugars left behind from the saison strain.

That seems like a pretty good way of going at it. I can give the saison yeast a chance to do the job before assuming I will have an issue, and if I do I can make a ripping starter/berry batch to rack on to. I could even start the starter combo with a lactic fermentation if I was feeling adventurous. Too many options and too many chances to screw this one up. I like it.