what should my new mash tun be

[Dirk McLargeHuge]

One of the most common flaws that I see from all grain brews is a lack of body/mouthfeel. I am convinced that this comes from homebrewers often not performing a mash-out step to fully denature the Alpha and Beta amylases. The typical process that, I believe, is at fault for this phenomenon is as follows. Brewers complete there mash and sparge with 170 degree water which will never get the grain bed up to the enzyme denaturing temp of 168. The collected wort sits in a secondary container for often an hour + during the sparge and slowly cools down enabling the various enzymes to continue their work and negating all the brewer's efforts to maintain a 156 degree mash resulting in a highly fermentable, dry, and low bodied beer.

Your particular set-up will determine how the mash-out can be performed. If you have a set-up with enough space to add enough hot water to bring the grain bed up to 168 degrees, then you are golden. From there you simply proceed to the sparge, after a 10-15 minute rest/vorlauf, with 168 -170 degree water. The second option (also they option I use), design your set-up to sparge with your 170 degree water to slightly raise the grain bed temp (ensuring that the grain bed does not drop below mash temps) and collect the wort in a kettle. Once a couple of gallons are collected, low heat can be applied which basically performs the mash-out enzyme denaturing as the wort is being collected. Planning for this mash-out step as you choose your mash tun would be recommended ... at least my me.

Denny gave a presentation at the NHC in Cincinnati about batch sparging. Someone asked him about mashing out, he said he sparges at 185F. Someone said that was too high and he smiled and shrugged.

[TheDarkSide]

Denny gave a presentation at the NHC in Cincinnati about batch sparging. Someone asked him about mashing out, he said he sparges at 185F. Someone said that was too high and he smiled and shrugged.

That's what I do, but then I worship at the temple of Denny's ( and Denny's breakfast isn't bad either )

[EagleDude]

One of the most common flaws that I see from all grain brews is a lack of body/mouthfeel. I am convinced that this comes from homebrewers often not performing a mash-out step to fully denature the Alpha and Beta amylases. The typical process that, I believe, is at fault for this phenomenon is as follows. Brewers complete there mash and sparge with 170 degree water which will never get the grain bed up to the enzyme denaturing temp of 168. The collected wort sits in a secondary container for often an hour + during the sparge and slowly cools down enabling the various enzymes to continue their work and negating all the brewer's efforts to maintain a 156 degree mash resulting in a highly fermentable, dry, and low bodied beer.

Your particular set-up will determine how the mash-out can be performed. If you have a set-up with enough space to add enough hot water to bring the grain bed up to 168 degrees, then you are golden. From there you simply proceed to the sparge, after a 10-15 minute rest/vorlauf, with 168 -170 degree water. The second option (also they option I use), design your set-up to sparge with your 170 degree water to slightly raise the grain bed temp (ensuring that the grain bed does not drop below mash temps) and collect the wort in a kettle. Once a couple of gallons are collected, low heat can be applied which basically performs the mash-out enzyme denaturing as the wort is being collected. Planning for this mash-out step as you choose your mash tun would be recommended ... at least my me.

Denny gave a presentation at the NHC in Cincinnati about batch sparging. Someone asked him about mashing out, he said he sparges at 185F. Someone said that was too high and he smiled and shrugged.

Interesting! I agree with Denny ... sparging with 185F water would bring the 155F mash right into the 170F range needed for enzyme denaturation. If you get the GRAIN BED above the 170F (not sparge water), that is where tannin extraction becomes a concern ... at least as I understand it.

[Monty Burns]

Fly sparge or batch sparge, it's all good. Whatever you choose, it should be stainless steel. IMO the major factor, behind fermentation flaws, in making homebrew taste like "homebrew", is plastic. You can argue about food grade ratings and safe temperatures and polymer science, I don't care *fingers in ears*. Plastic doesn't belong in the brew house. If it comes down to a 10 gal system with a cooler or a 5 gal system with stainless steel mash tun, go 5 gal. Quality over quantity.

As for insulation, don't bother. Modern malts will have already converted by the time mash temperature drops more than a degree or two.

[spiderwrangler]

Fly sparge or batch sparge, it's all good. Whatever you choose, it should be stainless steel. IMO the major factor, behind fermentation flaws, in making homebrew taste like "homebrew", is plastic. You can argue about food grade ratings and safe temperatures and polymer science, I don't care *fingers in ears*. Plastic doesn't belong in the brew house. If it comes down to a 10 gal system with a cooler or a 5 gal system with stainless steel mash tun, go 5 gal. Quality over quantity.

As for insulation, don't bother. Modern malts will have already converted by the time mash temperature drops more than a degree or two.

Do you know where I can find stainless hoses? Variation in temp can change fermentability profile...

[Monty Burns]

Fly sparge or batch sparge, it's all good. Whatever you choose, it should be stainless steel. IMO the major factor, behind fermentation flaws, in making homebrew taste like "homebrew", is plastic. You can argue about food grade ratings and safe temperatures and polymer science, I don't care *fingers in ears*. Plastic doesn't belong in the brew house. If it comes down to a 10 gal system with a cooler or a 5 gal system with stainless steel mash tun, go 5 gal. Quality over quantity.

As for insulation, don't bother. Modern malts will have already converted by the time mash temperature drops more than a degree or two.

Do you know where I can find stainless hoses? Variation in temp can change fermentability profile...

No, but I know where you can find silicone hoses.

It has been said on BN shows, that the highly modified malts of today convert in a few minutes at saccharification rest (I'm thinking of a Brew Strong show with a guy from Briess, in particular). Vinny Cilurzo has said that he mashes for 20 mins.

How much temperature loss in the mash do you think will occur aside from brewing outdoors in the middle of winter with 20 mph winds? If this is a concern, drape a blanket over it, wrap it in an old sleeping bag, etc....

Finally, don't take my word for it, do an Iodine test every minute or two during mashing and record results.

I'll borrow a line from Jamil and say that wort practically makes itself. Don't get too hung up on wort production. It's all about handling, fermentation and sanitation.

[Bugeater]

I'm not as down on fly sparging as my "for some ungodly reason" remark might suggest. It works great for thousands of brewers. Some setups are also more suited for fly sparging, hence my suggest of the keg for fly sparging. I've done many fly sparges and have been happy with the results.

Others have mentioned some of the reasons I batch sparge. One, it only takes about 5 minutes to do the sparge. This actually eliminates the need for a mash out. You can denature the enzymes in the boil kettle just as quick or quicker than if you try to do it in the mash tun. If you do the mash out in the mash tun, you will lose some heat before you get it on the burner to begin the boil. Letting the wort sit for up to an hour waiting for the sparge to finish will lose a lot of heat. Then you have to heat it all up again. When batch sparging, you don't have to heat the wort twice.

Eliminating the fly sparge from my routine saves me about an hour and a half on brew day. This give me plenty of time to do other stuff. Also the equipment is simple and you don't have to babysit the sparge.

Wayne

[Ozwald]

I run it off fast. ... it takes a bit of time for the liquid to pull the sugars from the grain.

Hmmmm....

Just sayin

EDIT: Most of my first batch sparges are 3/4 to 1 1/2 gallon, as calculated by BeerSmith, and is added at the end of the mash. So the water in the mash tun has been in contact with the grains for at least an hour already. By that time, according to what high school chemistry I remember, the sugar in the grain and the water are pretty much at equilibrium. Letting it sit another fifteen minutes while slowly sparging won't extract too much more sugar.

The second sparge is normally 3-4 gallons. I let it sit 10-15 minutes, as I said, to get more sugar out of the grains. Then I drain it like cow pissing on a flat rock.

YMMV

I was just pointing out that if you ran off slowly, you'd essentially be doing the same thing without waiting. 6 of one, half-dozen of the other. Also I wouldn't assume that the sugars are at an equilibrium between the water & the grain, seeing as they're going to be soluble at that temp & want to be dissolved in solution. What's left in the grain bed after your first run off won't actually be in the grain itself, but dissolved in the water that's trapped in there (for the most part). Since that's not going to be a high volume of sugary liquid, your second addition of water will dilute them almost immediately into a fairly congruous low gravity solution. Think of putting 1 drop of food coloring into a gallon of water.

Not discounting your method, just discussing the theory.