Filtering out hot break before fermentation?

[Ozwald]

I don't know how to add pics here

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=943

[gwk453]

Thanks! Ozwald, I will plod through the material.


Gary

[gwk453]

Here are a few pics of my polyfiber HopRocket setup:

[img][IMG]http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t585/gwk453/Filtering%20with%20HopBack/th_DSC_0236_zps518a89ea.jpg[/img][/img]


Gary

[disasterbrew]

Ok, this looks awesome, but it creeps me out. Is that poly fiber stuff food-safe? Do you just give it a good dunk in starsan to sanitize it? Is it clean, or could it be dusty or something and put some of that crap in your beer?

[gwk453]

Yes, I have used star san, but now I use my excess HLT sparge water to flush it out initially. Just prior to use, when connected to the boil pot, I fill it again with boiling wort. Its the same process that I would use to sanitize if I was using rice hulls. The HopRocket loads dry. Food grade poly, no. Not an intended use for the product. With its melting point close to 400 degrees F, it can be easily sanitized. My guess is it is cleaner than the grain and hops, I put into my beer. You can still throw some hops into the HopRocket too, just use less poly. With a good whirlpool stir and 15 min. settle after flame out, I have not had any plate chiller or infection problems with my last dozen brews. Poly is cheap and doesn't taste like rice tea, It's tasteless.


Gary

[Afterlab]

It's well-known fact that trub contains several things good for yeast health, but not all off-flavors are products or byproducts of the yeast. I noticed a few oversights in the aforementioned paper, but that aside, they only tested something we've known all along. On a homebrew level it's nearly impossible to remove all of the trub from the wort before we put it into our fermentors & that residual turbidity is just fine. Putting it all in there is going to create off-flavors that have absolutely nothing to do with the yeast or yeast-derived byproducts. If your beer sits on something, it's going to leach flavors from it. Oak is a good example. Also, the good stuff you could get from trub can be added in other ways, like that yeast nutrient you should already be using. If that much trub had a bunch of positive effects & no negative effects why in the world would the pros be investing tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars into equipment that is solely designed to remove it, such as pre-filters & dedicated whirlpools? Because it has a greater negative effect than all of the positives combined.

In other words, get as much out as you can. There still will be some left in solution & again, that's fine. If yeast health/fermentation is a problem, trub is not the solution. There are plenty of tried/tested/proven ways to improve that without the negative effects trub presents.

+10,000,001

One thing to consider when debating some of the more "wishy-washy" brewing practices and processes is that they can have a major impact on a commercial scale and a negligible impact on a homebrew scale. Competent breweries that package their beer for distribution and potential long term aging on an unrefrigerated store shelf need to ensure their product is going to remain stable for an extended amount of time when it leaves their brewery. In order to do this they need to take every step they can to ensure all those tiny unwanted organic compounds from the water, malt, hops, yeast and oxygen are out of the final product. This is done by kettle finings, whirlpooling to separate trub, filtering, pasteurizing, etc... Most homebrewers wont be able to or need to necessarily guarantee the shelf stability of their beer because it will be consumed fairly quickly and they don't need to worry about reading a bad review about their beer on ratebeer or beer advocate.

Positives of trub carryover:
1. Turbid wort into a fermentation vessel helps maintain numerous suspended nucleation points for CO2 to off-gas during fermentation. This helps speed up fermentation slightly.
2. Compounds like fatty acids can contribute to yeast viability when utilized in yeast sterol synthesis. This can aid brewers in yeast growth if they haven't sufficiently aerated their wort. However, this can easily be negated by the fact that if you aerate properly you will not need fatty acids to aid in yeast sterol synthesis.
3. Lipids from trub can also inhibit the formation of unpleasant acetate esters.
5. Some polyphenols from water, malt, hops and yeast can function as an antioxidant
6. Additional proteins from trub can break down into single amino acids for yeast to use

Negatives of trub carryover:
1. Lipids from trub decrease beer foam and stability. Trub has the potential to consist of 50% lipids, which can be anywhere from 5-40 times as much as clear trub-free wort.
2. The more organic compounds you have available during fermentation, the more you will have available to participate in staling and oxidation reactions.
3. The more Tannins and Proteins you have in your fermentation and inevitably your final product, the more you have available to bond together and create permanent chill haze
4. When fatty acids from trub undergo oxidative chemical reactions you can form compounds that have soapy and unpleasant aromas.
5. Some polyphenols from water, malt, hops and yeast can be pro-oxidant

Final verdict:
It's not worth the risk carrying trub over during fermentation. It may seem like it just sits at the bottom of the carboy out of sight and out of mind but the chemical bonds between a lot of the organic compounds found in trub will certainly find a way to make it back into your beer. Long story short, make sure you create proper trub break after chilling and keep that trub in the kettle and out of the beer. Some breweries without fancy equipment will chill the beer through a plate chiller, further cool down to pitching temps and hold it for about 12 hours while the trub continues to settle out before dumping the trub and pitching the yeast. We as homebrewers can certainly utilize those 12 hours by topping off our yeast starters with some of the fresh wort while we wait to pitch the yeast. This can serve as a great "step starter" and reduce lag times.